Love this podcast.

Support this show through the A-Cast supporter feature.

It's up to you how much you give,

and there's no regular commitment.

Just click the link in the show description to support now. This is one of Deep State radios, briefs and debriefs. lives.

Hello and welcome to another of Deep State Radio's one-on-one conversations with leading experts.

I'm pleased to have with us here today Evo Dalder, who runs the Chicago Council on Global Affairs and is the co-author of a new book with

Jim Lindsay and it's called The Empty Throne America's Abdication of global leadership and it is a timely dive into the

foreign policy of the Maybe, Evo, you could start by giving us a little bit of the rationale for choosing to go in this direction with this book.

Yeah, really two reasons, David, why we decided to write the book. One, of course, there is a new president and he is a, he's a different president and we want to understand how different he was from his predecessors.

And the key issue that we focused on

was the issue of leadership.

Whereas every president since Franklin Roosevelt

believed in not only a rules-based order but the

necessity of the United States to lead in that order to maintain it.

Donald Trump came to office thinking that the rules-based order actually was a bad deal for the United States

and that the United States shouldn't be leading anymore, it should start focusing on winning.

So that was one reason we wanted to talk about. anymore, it should start focusing on winning.

So that was one reason we wanted to talk about his foreign policy.

The second reason, though, is we also wanted to look at a broader evolution of American foreign policy and the reality

that that same rules-based order that has been so central for 70 years in American

foreign policy was was being challenged.

...